Jan 17, 2024

Former CFTC Chair, Chris Giancarlo and SEC Commissioner Hester Peirce, aka "crypto mom" and "crypto dad," join "First Mover" with insights on how the spot bitcoin ETF approval could impact the crypto industry and financial innovation.

Video transcript

My favorite author Doug Adams, the, the author of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Uh once said that and I'll, I'll paraphrase because I don't remember the exact quote. But it was that anything that's invented before you turn 35 is way cool. And it's probably gonna be the source of a lifetime of engagement the rest of your life. But anything that's invented after you turn 35 is dangerous suspect and needs to be suppressed. I think there's a lot of that going on in crypto. That was former CF DC chairman Chris Carlo, also known as Crypto Dad on the relationship between government and crypto here in the United States. That interview in just a few minutes. Good afternoon and welcome to first mover on coin desk. You're here because you're interested in the crypto news. And we got all your top crypto news headlines along with interviews from industry heavy hitters. Today is a really super special show because not only do we have crypto dad, but we have crypto mom sec Commissioner Hester Purse will also join us later on in the show. So stick around. Let's take a look at what's going on in the news this morning, the Sam Bateman Fried Saga is far from over this time, his parents are asking a court to dismiss a lawsuit by FTX seeking to recover funds that it alleges were fraudulently transferred. In September last year. FTX sought to recover millions of dollars from Joseph Beman and Barbara freed that the bankrupt crypto exchange claims were appropriated. Both parents are professors at Stanford Law School in a court filing. they argued that it's not enough for FTX to plead that the parents knew or should have known. Instead, the filing argued that FTX should have produced specific facts, showing actual knowledge that the pair quote knew certain actions would result in a breach of fiduciary duty. Data shows that the dollar remained the most favored currency in international transactions with global demand for us. Government bonds holding steady. So what does this mean for crypto? Well, it could mean that de dollarization expectations are a bit premature credit. Agricole's G 10 FX strategy team set in a note to clients on Monday, quote, U sds share in international swift transactions surged in 2023 to reach its highest level in more than 10 years. In contrast, the euro share collapsed and that of the yen and pound moderated and quote, according to the note, the dollar is likely to remain the currency of choice or haven asset during times of stress sucking money from other assets like Bitcoin and stocks and will the metaverse take off. Magic Leap. Sure thinks so. The mixed reality start up that raised almost $4 billion says the metaverse will take off once it properly aligns with market needs CTO of Magic Leap. Daniel Diaz told Venture beat quote, true cap abilities of the metaverse will come to life when it's a fabric built of digital experiences ingrained or embedded into the physical world. End quote. Venture investment in the metaverse hit a multiyear low in 2023. And the coin desk Metaverse select index is down 37.5% over the year. What else is everyone talking about this morning? Davos, the World Economic Forum annual meeting is taking place as we speak. And coin desk's Chief Content Officer Michael Casey is on the ground. Michael. Wonderful to see you with those beautiful mountains behind you. Uh It, it is, it's great to be ii I feel a little lonely. I wish, you know, the, the full coin desk team were here with me like we did last year. So hopefully next weekend I'll be here, but I wasn't going to bring it up. I wasn't going to bring it up next time next time for sure. It's been fun. Yeah. Ok. Let's talk about what's happening at the World Economic Forum. I heard that crypto is taking a back seat to A I this year. Talk to us about some of the conversations that are happening on the ground. Yes, definitely. Taking a back seat to a IA I is consuming everybody's, I mean, the promenade is full of signs saying, you know, every tech company out there claiming to be the A I for humanity solution, right? Uh There are talks everywhere about this, obviously in the Congress is a, is a big conversation about like regulating A I. Um you know, but iiiii I personally think that these things should not be considered mutually exclusive. Um You know, the, the in fact, some of the, the uh events that we've been going with the crypto community has been holding A I conversations trying to further the idea that um you know, if ever there were a use case for, for Blockchain, it, it's this one right, that this idea that we need provenance of the data that the is a there, there may be a way to prove uh the history and and provenance and therefore trustworthiness of digital information in an age of, of deep fakes, etcetera, etcetera. These are, these are things that actually a lot of blockchains are built for. Uh and that, and that, you know, a lot of folks are sort of looking to build like these decentralized data sourcing concepts for so that all of that's out there. Um It's not necessarily getting the attention of the broad establishment. Um I think most people still think, you know, crypto is all just about the tokens. Um But, you know, there is amongst the community at least here, it's clear there's an effort to try to raise the conversation to a point where, you know, maybe regulators will start to listen and see that. In fact, in this case, they ha they have something to bring to the table uh that, that may be a solution for them. I'm always interested to hear about what's driving the crypto conversation at the World Economic Forum in years prior. There's been a real focus on stable coins and CBD CS. It sounds like now there's a focus on this convergence of tech A I and Blockchain. But what about the ETF has that come and any more inside? And I, I think the conversation amongst the crypto community is that convergence is definitely not what's happening at the web itself. But the, we, yeah, there's a little bit of talk about the ETF, I mean, it was such a big story. Um You know, and you know, we, we, we tomorrow, in fact, we'll have an interview with, with Michael. So trying to give us a take on Grace G's take on all this. Um But I think really, actually interestingly um the, the, the official, like the, the establishment look is tokenisation. That's the big word. So you've heard, you know, Larry Fink who's been on every uh you know, news media outlet here. Um Yeah, talking about the ETF of course, cos that was a big story for, for Blackrock. Uh But here is the Ceo of Blackrock, Larry Fink now almost shifting the narrative and talking about tokenization, tokenisation is going to uh you know, bring all new efficiencies to financial markets and so forth. And so we're seeing some panels on that at the actual Congress, the World Economic Forum. Um and with people like that, you know, raising the conversation, it, it certainly brings that idea uh forward and you've got, you know, Stella who uh are, are sort of touting themselves as a player in this and they're a, a common presence in Davos. You have Hadera hash Graf who is also sort of looking at that, but probably also just importantly, the guys from Casper labs um who are building, you know, solutions for it. You know, it, it's, there's a number of people here who are, are quite excited by the idea that um tokenisation is, is the, is the next big wave Michael. The theme of the show today is regulation. We have former CFTC chair, Chris Carlo and SEC Commissioner Hester Perce joining us in just a little bit over at the World Economic Forum. What's the outlook on regulation? I mean, I, I think there is um I mean, everybody in the, the crypto space of course, is, is talking about um whether or not the S ECs uh approval, you know, is a sea chains of some sort like whether or not there will be an approval for uh uh an EVTF following up with this, for example. Um And I think the conclusion still is that it was a very begrudging uh you know, approval, you know, we, we all read the statement that came from the sec, you know, they almost read like, uh yes, they, they're approved, but we're holding our nose in doing so and you really shouldn't invest in crypto anyway. Um So I think, you know, people aren't after all of this time necessarily, you know, holding their breath for a change of tune from, from Gary Gansler and from the SEC. Um, but at the same time, it, the, the, the message that does seem to emerge is that the judiciary has played a key role, right? These, these lawsuits grace scale's victory again, uh, uh, in the, in the ETF, of course, um, you know, Ripple's victory, Brad Garlinghouse is a, is a, you know, ceo of Ripple is a regular appear here, uh, uh, at Davos and was walking around like he's, uh, uh, uh, you know, a bit of a success story in this. Um, and we've got, uh, you know, this, this idea that, um, ultimately the courts, uh, recognized the, the need to rein in the sec on some of this stuff and that, that I think people see as a source of hope that in fact, ultimately things will get a bit better, but it's an election year. So, you know, it, it, it's, it's no one's looking for stablecoin regulation that was a conversation that came up yesterday and one of the panels I was involved in, they all know it has to happen. You know, Europe is moving forward. Uh Singapore is moving forward. Japan has moved forward and there's Hong Kong that it's gonna take at least another year or so until something concrete can get done in a dysfunctional congress in the middle of an election. Ok, Michael, we're gonna let you get back to it. Thank you for joining Chris over this morning. Follow all of our world Economic Forum coverage on coindesk.com that was Coin Desk's Chief content Officer Michael Casey. We've already mentioned the metaverse once today. So I think it's only fair we talk about NFTS. Now, let's take a look at the chart of the day. The chart of the day is presented by crypto.com, the leading crypto platform trusted by over 80 million users worldwide. According to N and data. The lil Pudgy floor price has increased by a whopping 172% over the past 30 days making it the best performing NFT with a minimum of 1000 E volume. The Little Pudgies is a collection of 22,222 NFTS that originated from pudgy Penguins. They are described on the website as cute, adorable, fierce and mighty. So what's driving the hype? The excitement could be attributed to an announcement made in December that the project is venturing into gaming. Pudgy world is expected to launch later this year giving NFT holders an interactive digital playground to participate in narrative driven and open ended gameplay options. Pudgy penguins haven't only taken over the digital world but they're in the physical world too. IRL toys are being sold in 2000 Walmarts in the United States. One of the first major breakthroughs by an NFT brand into mainstream consumer culture with world leaders and financial executives gathering at the World Economic Forum in the United States still reeling from the approval of a spot Bitcoin ETF. We zoom out and take a deep dive into crypto regulation in the United States and who better to take us on a journey of what happened. What's currently happening and what should happen next than our crypto parents, crypto mom and dad. In the last few days, I had the pleasure of sitting down with SEC Commissioner Hester Purse and former CFTC chairman Christian Carlo to cover everything from spot Bitcoin ETF S the elections and even beekeeping while the SEC finally greenlit that spot Bitcoin ETF. It was a decade long battle in the next interview. Purse expresses excitement at the final result and some frustration at the process. Let's take a look as the industry continues to reel over the approval of spot Bitcoin ETF S in the United States. Our next guest joins to share insight into the regulatory process leading up to this moment. Joining me now is Sec Commissioner Ether purse. Welcome. It's great to be here, John. Well, we've asked all the asset managers we've spoken to how they're feeling. How are you feeling now that this has finally gone through? It's been a decades long journey. Yeah, I'm definitely happy that this is the end of at least this phase of the journey. It's been one that's way too long in the coming. So I I'm happy the day is here that we have the approvals and now that investors can tell us what they think of these products. And commissioner, I got to ask you what happened with the Twitter account the day before we got the approval, uh any insight into what happened there. No, there's been uh you know, as, as we've said, there was a hack and it's something that we're investigating with the assistance of our law enforcement colleagues. All right, I wanna talk a little bit more about the approval. Now after it was announced, uh the commissioners, of course, Chair Gary Gensler issued statements and they were very, very different from one another. You and Commissioner Ueda were on the same page with the approval. Chair Gensler remains strongly critical although he joined you um in a in uh voting to pass this. And then Caroline Crenshaw issued her statement of dissent saying that this is quote unsound reading, all of these statements kind of paints a picture of strife within the walls of the sec. Can you shed some light there. Well, I think we illustrated that we're a commission of five people with five different perspectives on, on this issue. And, um, I think we all express those views, you know, look, I think that it's good that we bring different views to the table. I was of the view that after the DC circuit spoke, um, there wasn't a lot of wiggle room for us. We really had 11 way forward. Um, And, and we took that way forward. I think we did it in a way that was begrudging, um as opposed to, uh you know, graciously accepting that that was the situation. Um But I think it also illustrates that the diverse set of perspectives on this issue illustrates that while the Bitcoin Etp decision has been made, there are, um there are likely to be difficult, difficult times ahead still for crypto, for the crypto industry. Well, in your statement, you criticized the process in which the SEC reached the decision. Can you tell us a little bit more, as I've said for years now? Um I don't understand why we took so long to get to the place that we did yesterday. And I don't understand why we took the course that we took to get there. Um I, I've been a commissioner now for six years and it's remarkable to me that in that six years, it's taken us so long and it's taken so many hours of so many people's time both at the commission and, and outside of the commission. Um, and I think that's, that's really problematic and it's a time for us to sit down and say, how can we avoid this kind of thing in the future? We, we should not be using merit based regulatory reasons to extend regulatory processes. That's, that's not, that's not our job when you voice that. Do you feel like you're being heard? And I guess in other words, do you feel like you're making an impact in your role at the sec? Well, look, I'm one of five and um, so I have my set of views and I do try to, to convince my colleagues clearly, I haven't convinced all my colleagues that I'm, that I uh that my view is right here. But, but I think it's important that I continue to voice it. And look, there are a lot of people in the industry who have been raising concerns and I think it's important for them to know too that, um, you know, many of the concerns that they raise, I think are valid. You've pointed out the difference between the treatment of this ETP application and others. Can you unpack that for us? Yeah, I mean, I think one thing that I saw when I looked at the first of these applications to come across my desk was we've, we've approved similar commodity precious metals based applications in the past, this really isn't different, you know, you're not really supposed to focus on the underlying market in which the, the commodity trades, but you look at the exchange traded product market itself. And in this case, we didn't do that. We were fixated on, on the underlying Bitcoin market. Um I think that's problematic. Um And again, we're not making an endorsement of an asset when we approve an exchange traded product, that's based on that asset. There are lots of exchange traded products out there that do lots of different things. And they're not all right for every investor. Uh And, and that's why it's really important for people to understand our limited role. And when I say people, we don't understand that. I think it's both people within the commission and people outside the commission. Can you give me a little bit more there? Why do you think that this was so different than, than the ETP applications that the agency has reviewed and approved before? Is it just the crypto industry, the unknown that made this so different? I mean, I think getting our hands around a new type of asset is it's, it's a project to do that. And I think that it's understandable that there are a lot of questions about that. Um But again, we, we have to acknowledge the limits of our, of our authority and I think we just didn't do that. Uh You know, it's perplexed me all along and I never knew what would get us over the finish line because we had dug ourselves into a hole of using reasoning that both didn't seem to be pegged to the statute and also didn't seem to be pegged to precedent. That's how we've dealt with these things in the past. And so I was uncertain how we would dig ourselves out. It turns out it took a court to dig us, dig ourselves out of this. Um And I think that, that, you know, that result was, was the thing that pushed us over the finish line we saw in the market reaction to the news over the past 24 to 48 hours that folks are thinking a spot Ether ETF could be next. They're saying that the uh road to the spot Bitcoin ETF may make it easier for a spot Ether ETF approval when those applications come up. Uh Is, is there some truth there or do we have to start the process all over again? Well, I mean, precedents matter or they should matter as I, as I've been saying, they should matter. And when we, when we look at new applications that come in and, you know, it's, it's typical that you'll see, um someone will do one thing and someone else will build on top of that and, and so someone could do something else with a similar crypto asset um particularly with the focus on the interaction between the futures market and the spot market. Um That was that was discussed in the order approving the Bitcoin application. In 2023. We saw um a handful of companies leave the US for other parts of the world that they say have more regulatory clarity, be better regulatory frameworks. What would you say to those companies if you had to speak to them, who are choosing to relocate because of lack of regulatory clarity here in the United States? I mean, certainly I think it's a shame that people are leaving. I do, you know, I do think this is the best country in the world to, to uh build things and, and you know, we have lots of people from all over the world that have come here to do just that, but we do owe people a clear regulatory framework and that's something that has not until uh you know, still has not been provided here. Um And you know, there's some argument for saying you want to wait till the technology matures a little bit to develop a regulatory framework, but you need to have some kind of guide, guide guide rails in place so that people can make decisions about what they can and can't do. And that's what I think we really, we've really failed to do. Our answer has been to come in after the fact with enforcement actions and that's just not the most productive way to do things. But what I would, what I would urge people to do is be thinking about what a good regulatory framework would look like. Um I do think there'll be a change of sentiment here in the US and if there is, we need to be ready to go at that moment. Um with, you know, we're not gonna have a regulatory framework just born immediately, right? But we need to have the conditions ready to, to build a good, strong um reasonable regulatory framework and one that everyone has had a chance to contribute to building, I don't want it to be something that's designed in the back room of a settlement negotiation with one company. I want it to be something that is um really lots of people have had a chance to weigh in and, and build a good regulatory framework so that some of those companies that have moved outside of the US can really seriously think about coming back to the US and working here and also serving Ameri the American public with their products and services. What's it gonna take? Do you think to get that change of sentiment? I mean, time may be one thing, but I, I really think we could also just see people um coming to a realization that there is some potential um you know, use for crypto. I think there's been a lot of frustration that we haven't seen more um more use cases. But at the same time, some of that, I think again, flows from the lack of regulatory clarity here. I think uh an environment in which there's regulatory clarity is one that really spawns um more use cases and, and less of the bad activity that we, that we want to avoid. Um, and, and so, and the technology is moving forward and people are doing interesting things with it. So I think that will change people's minds as well. Commissioner. I know you have to go, but I have to ask you in 2025 your term is coming to an end. What are you going to do after? I have no idea other than beekeeping. I I, which is my aspiration. I have no idea. Have you gotten your bees yet? No, they, they have to wait. Well, I, I look forward to that day. Maybe, maybe you can send me a jar of honey or something. We, we can't jump the dot I hope it doesn't take me 10 years to make a jar of money though. I hope I can that. I hope so too. I, I think that has a shorter timeline for sure. Commissioner. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks. It's great to talk to you. That was Sec Commissioner Hester Perce. Our next guest was chair of the CFTC when it approved the Bitcoin Futures ETF. And now he champions discussions on the future of the digital dollar, former CFTC chairman and current executive chairman of the digital dollar project. Chris Giancarlo is up next to zoom out and look forward as the United States winds up for an election year. What's it gonna take to get clear regulation and a government that embraces innovation and how do we future proof? The dollar Gian Carlo says we need a younger government. Let's take a listen, Jen. It's really great to be with you. Thank you for the warm invitation and the warm opportunity to chat with you this morning. Of course. but I have to ask you, we spoke to SEC Commissioner Hester Purse last week and we asked her what she thought of being called crypto mom. And so I think that since we have crypto dad here, how do you feel that the industry calls you crypto dad? Well, I, you know, it, it, it probably came about in the most unlikely way that a nickname could come. And that is from a, a Senate banking committee hearing in, in uh January or February of 2018. A few weeks before the CFTC had greenlighted Bitcoin Futures. And that was something of a controversial decision at that time. I remember both some us and, and many overseas regulators uh felt that that uh we were going too far. I remember one European regulator saying that we were legitimizing Bitcoin. And I said, oh, no, no, no, no, it's not for regulators to legitimize or delegitimize it's for the marketplace, at least in free economies and for free societies, it's for free peoples to legitimize something. It's for regulators to bri bring a proper regulatory structure around it, to protect against fraud and manipulation. And that's what we were doing. Anyway, as I, I gave that testimony at the hearing, I looked up to the senators and I said, you know, senators, I know I'm here as the head of a federal regulatory agency. But if you don't mind, I'd like to just talk to you as a dad. And I explained to them that a lot of my kids uh who hadn't been interested in the stock market uh were suddenly fascinated by crypto and Bitcoin. And I said, you know, look, II, I think you're probably some mo moms and dads and their grandparents in the room here yourselves. And I think we owe it to young people to take this seriously and not dismiss it as something childish, but actually put some proper regulatory and legal uh policies in place so that this innovation can flourish and flourish. Well, and it was with that, that my crypto uh twitter, my Twitter uh uh account just exploded. And I went from 1500 followers to over 50,000 followers in a matter of days. And they gave me a lot of nicknames and crypto dad was the one that stuck. Well, I couldn't be happier to start the week off with crypto mom and dad on the show. Now, I have to ask you as we're talking about regulation. The industry finally got our long awaited spot. Bitcoin ETF. It's been 10 years in the making that came through, uh, late last week. What do you make of that news? Where does the industry go from here? Yeah, I, I, what do I make of the news? Uh, what I make of the news is, I think finally after a lot of internal turmoil in, in the current administration, um there's basically been a deal reached between the left wing of the party and Trad Fi as to how to proceed uh with regard to Bitcoin. I I, you know, more broadly just as my own experience in the previous previous two administrations, both O Obama and Trump, uh Bitcoin can be very threatening, crypto can be very threatening to countries that deploy central bank, they can deploy a, a reserve currency. And I think almost each administration has got to work out for themselves, how they view their relationship with what is not only in what is more than a new asset class, which is really a new architecture of finance, an architecture of finance that looks to the internet and, and decentralized uh internets of value to record value as opposed to recording value on Trad by bank balance sheets and other central repository. So it's really an entirely new architecture. I think governments worldwide have have have struggled to come to grips with this. You know, China's reaction uh in, in is almost a defensive one. Let's create a central bank reserve currency, digital currency to compete with Bitcoin. I think the EU is approaching it in somewhat that same defensive fashion. The United States is still very much grappling with the question of what does crypto mean? Now, during the Trump administration, um I was able to green light Bitcoin futures and that's almost five. It's actually a little bit over five years ago now. And today that market is, it's deep, it's liquid, it's transparent and it's well policed for fraud manipulation. And as we saw with FTX, the only piece of the FTX Empire that didn't collapse is the piece that was overseen by the CFTC. And the point I, the, the, the, the lesson to be learned from that is that us regulators and other reg regulators can engage with crypto uh and can do so successfully if they have the will to do it. But I think in current administration, they've really struggled to come to grips with that. And I think finally, they've resolved that in this approach to the ETF, which is, which is both positive. I think it's very positive in many ways for Bitcoin, I think it is the, the signal that that many have been waiting for that the prospect of a banning of Bitcoin, which is always a possibility is probably no longer a likely reality. I also agree with uh with former nec director, Gary Cole, with whom I served uh in Washington that this is really now the recognition that uh atomic settlement, that same day settlement immediate settlement um I is coming to finance and coming in a big way and it's gonna be interesting to see how an ETF that is a 22 day settlement process on top of it. Uh uh an immediate settlement instrument like Bitcoin uh is going to resolve itself. I, so in those ways, I think it's an important step forward, but I also think it has certain challenges in it because we are in a sense handing the ownership of an enormous amount of Bitcoin to a lot of our traditional players. It's gonna be interesting to see well, how that centralization uh aspect interplay with an asset class that is at heart meant to be decentralized. What role do you think? Um if any role crypto is going to play in the upcoming elections, talk to us like a dad, do Americans really care about these crypto issues that you and I talk about so so often. Is it really a big issue in the States right now? It is J and, and some of it is not political, some of it is generational. My favorite author, Doug Adams, the, the author of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Uh once said that and I'll, I'll paraphrase because I don't remember the exact quote. But it was that anything that's invented before you turn 35 is way cool and it's probably gonna be the source of a lifetime of engagement the rest of your life. But anything that's invented after you turn 35 is dangerous suspect and needs to be suppressed. I think there's a lot of that going on in crypto and when we've got an administration that's, you know, pretty heavily populated by septage Arians, in some case, octogenarians. This is something that threatens everything they know about finance going back to their days when they had passbook sa savings accounts and, and checkbooks. And um I can understand why this innovation is very threatening. I think as we go forward, whether it's a Republican or Democrat, whether it's uh Trump or any other administration, we're gonna increasingly see younger people moving in to serve and younger people will bring with them a comfort level with networks, you know, are they grew up in a networked world, whether that's a network of information or a network of, of gaming, they're gonna bring with them notion of a network of value. And so I think that this innovation is going to proceed regardless of the next administration. On the other hand. However, I do think that and, and I say this as someone who served both in Obama and Trump, but who tends to be on the free market side of the aisle. I do think that you'll see a greater emphasis on free markets and perhaps a greater comfort level uh with allowing innovations to proceed the same comfort level allowed me to green light Bitcoin futures. Five years ago, I think you'll see uh a greater and though you'll also see a greater emphasis on if innovation is going to take place. It, it, we, we want it to take place in the United States. London has put a S A sign on the door that says we're open for business, come and do your innovation here. The United States is losing a lot of innovation because of the hostility to crypto that I think is somewhat, uh, generated by a relatively old degree of financial regulators in the current administration or at least ones that are perhaps, uh, more skeptical, skeptical of any type of challenge to traditional financial and traditional financial structures. Chris, I'm surprised to hear you're joining us from London, given the work you're doing on the Digital Dollar project, I would think that you'd be in Davos right now, speaking to other world leaders about the potential for digital dollar and other digital currencies. Why aren't you there? Well, in fact, it was four years ago at Davos, uh, where, uh, the Digital Dollar project, uh, first announced itself to the world and, and as, uh, and I'll, and I'll talk about that in a second. But, you know, Davos, certainly the World Economic Forum I, I think is, is, is, is it perhaps it may be perception of reality but, uh, doesn't seem to be as free market, uh, doesn't seem to be as wedded to uh uh the type of uh uh financial innovation, uh and, and, and democratic financial innovation as the Digital Dollar project uh would like to see now, what do I mean by that? Well, the Digital Dollar project really has one very simple mission and that is to ask the question and hope come up with some answers of how do we future proof the dollar? How do we preserve, if not enhance its reserve currency status? And how do we do so preserving the values that I think the dollar has historically stood for values of free enterprise, of free trade, of economic liberty and financial privacy in a coming world of digital networks of value, some of which will be highly decentralized like Bitcoin, but others will be very centralized and run by governments and even exported by governments and some run by highly centralized big tech companies and, and and, and uh big banks. And that's the question we seek to ask. It's a question where we don't unfortunately hear enough of that question being addressed within us government. But also we feel it's vital that it be addressed by the private sector. In my book Crypto Dad, The Fight For the Future of Money. I coined a phrase and I said money is too important to be left to central bankers. And by that, I mean, no disrespect to central bankers. But it's a play on uh a phrase by French Premier Clemenceau at the end of World War one and looking back on the carnage of the war and the bad decisions that were made, he said, you know, maybe money, maybe war is too important to be left to the generals. And I feel the same way and I think we have the digital Dollar project feel the same way about a movement into a digital world. We need the private sector working alongside the public sector on taking a look at what a if the United States were to deploy a central bank digital currency. And by the way, the digital Dollar project does not advocate that the us deploy a central bank digital currency. But we do advocate that the United States lead this evolution and lead with its values. 30 years ago. When the world was first looking at an internet of information, the United States and other Western democracies made sure that the internet of information was not controlled by the leaders of closed societies and who who would have had an internet that was very controllable by their closed society. Governments. 30 years later, we have those same closed societies looking to develop standards for digital currency that are safe for censorship that are safe for surveillance and are safe for control. The United States and the other democracies, the other open societies need to be at the leadership table making sure that the internet of value is one that protects the democratic principles of freedom of, of financial expression of economic liberty and financial independence. And that, that, that, that, that, that advocacy is actually sadly, uh being weakly advocated by the democracies. And we at the Digital Dollar project are hoping to fill that gap, Chris, I got to ask you for our audience just before we wrap this up, when we talk about a digital dollar break it down for us. Are we talking about a central bank, digital currency? Are we talking about a Stablecoin? Are we talking about the digital dollars that we use on our credit cards? And, and if one over the other, what's the progression to towards the future that you just unpacked there? The future I envision Jen um and increasingly uh I believe this will be, the case will be uh it will not be any one of the above. It will be all of the above. The future will be a kaleidoscope. Uh both uh government uh deployed central currency, central uh digital central bank, digital currencies of, of uh big technology deployed stablecoins and a bank operated uh uh uh wholesale digital money. And it will also feature decentralized systems uh like Bitcoin, Ethereum XRP and others. Uh I think if you just look at trends, China is barreling ahead with their central bank digital currency, Europe is in uh uh continues to state that this is coming and it's coming fast. The Atlantic Council has reported that over 100 and 30 countries right now are working on central bank digital currency. Major experiments just project Mariana just announced between France, Switzerland, Singapore, looking at central bank digital currency. So central bank digital currency is coming. Stablecoins continue to roll out, continue to deploy of various kinds from US DC to others. So I think the future is going to be very much a kaleidoscope and that raises issues of interoperability. Will all those stable coins operate with other stablecoins? How will they interact with government central bank, digital currency, with the digital yuan be interoperable with the digital euro? How will that work? The opportunity I think exists now for the United States to project the dollar into another 50 years of prominence. Not necessarily because the US economy is the biggest and largest or the dollar is the most powerful instrument in the world. But because the values on which it's based are the most powerful values in the world for people that are aspire to freedom around the world will flock to a digital currency that protects their economic liberty. And if that's the dollar or if that's a stable coin based upon the dollar, that will be the the winner in that future Kaleidoscope of Digital Systems of value. Chris, we are going to have to wrap it there. It's always a pleasure having you on first mover. Thanks so much for joining the show. My pleasure to be with you, Jen. Let's do it again soon. Of course, we'll definitely invite you back soon. Talk about uh some of the progress that's made, but let's say in, in a month or two, we'll welcome you back on to the show that was former chairman of the US Commodity Futures Trading Commission and executive chairman of the digital dollar project. Chris Giancarlo. That's a wrap for first mover on a Wednesday. Thank you so much for watching and thank you to our guests, Chief Content Officer at Coin Desk, Michael Casey Sec, Commissioner Hester Purse and former CFTC chairman Chris Giancarlo. Thank you so much for watching as you know, first mover has new format these days. If you have any feedback for us DM Me on Twitter, my handle is on the screen right now. We will take serious feedback and apply it to the show. As a note, some interviews on first mover are edited for consistency and clarity. All right, we hope you have a great day, get all of your news updates on coindesk.com and we'll see you tomorrow.

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